welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gayathri
the United States is in crisis this
weekend after the latest in a long line
of gun crimes racial hatred and the
consequences of slavery and segregation
on which the US was built the mass
murder of black Christians in Charleston
South Carolina once upon a time the
Satanic center of the mass slavery of
Africans bought and sold like cattle
niet trigger in this long hot summer
some cataclysmic events like those of
the 1960s in the wake of the
assassinations of President Kennedy his
brother Robert Malcolm X and the
Reverend Martin Luther King but if they
don't it's just a matter of time son of
a week goes by when a black man is not
murdered or grievously assaulted by a
white police officer was usually clear
of any blame by an all-white tribunal
meanwhile
against take form though whether mrs.
Hillary Clinton can accurately be
described as a new generation at the age
of 67 must be debatable but she seems
certain to be the Democratic Party
nominee to succeed President Obama and
what you know the Republican is likely
to be Jeb Bush son of one President Bush
brother of another cracky I knew they
were close to the Saudis but this is
real dynasty joining us now to discuss
the American imbroglio his artis own
stacy herbert Stacy welcome to the
Sputnik let's start with the disastrous
crime in South Carolina this young man
modern a lot of people is this going to
be get still more mothers is America on
the brink of some kind of race war well
just after it a few hours later there
was another shooting at a Memphis
Tennessee Church there was at a black
church the shooting toward it nobody was
killed but there is a lot of tension I
think it's going on the same matter how
you were talking about Clinton and Bush
two dynasties in America look like they
could possibly be the two candidates for
Republican and Democrat in America think
America's transitioning from an empire
into whatever comes next they had that
exorbitant privilege of the dollar
they're losing that privilege and in
America there they're also losing the
white privilege so Americans who are
white have had a privilege in our
society until last year when the the new
generation coming into the schools you
know it was less than fifty percent of
them are white so I think there's a lot
of tension psychologically in the
population they're no longer an empire
when they were an empire by the way as
they were building our empire in America
we refused to admit it we we pretended
we were an upstart you know democratic
nation and we would never become
Imperial like the Brits that we
separated from but now that we're losing
it we're become a very imperial openly
Imperial in terms of our behavior as
we're losing it so we're trans Imperial
you can call us we want to be like an
empire
we've already lost it where that's over
where's this going to go I'm you know
given the prevalence of powerful
automatic weapons in the United States
any conflict built around racial lines
has the I mean could be talking about a
new civil war well that's one of the
reasons also why the American police
force is so deadly I mean if you look at
the u.s. police deaths and the British
police deaths since 1791 and they have
records for both nations since 1790 one
as a proportion of the population there
have been just as many UK police
officers killed in the line of duty as
American police officers and yet a lot
more victims of police violence and the
United States now one of the reasons is
that Americans are very well-armed here
the police are pretty certain when they
go to arrest somebody they're not going
to be armed with an ak-47 in the US is a
good chance the person you're going to
arrest could have an ak-47 I think a lot
of police are very afraid and they're in
particular afraid of black people that
they're going to arrest our confront
they see them as more you know
superpower or super you know the weapons
that they're going to have Wow well
let's turn to the political front though
of course these two things are not at
all disconnected I mean Donald Trump
let's talk about him before we shall
overcome as the song says What did he
say on the launch of his back when he
launched his campaign he imagined that
he went to build a wall between the
United States and Mexico and get Mexico
to Berlin Wall oh yes a Berlin Wall ER
like the wall in Israel Palestine and
then he said that the Mexicans in
America called they are rapists he said
they're rapists can I can say that he
going in America you can say whatever
you want but the guy who shot up at the
the church in Charleston South Carolina
he also said that when killing these
nine african americans in this church he
said that as he was reloading he said
I'm sorry but your your your men rape
our women and you're taking over this
country I think that's a good you know
microcosm of what is going on in
in America in general around the world
is reflecting the same idea yes he
messes China he mentions like I i like
to Chinese they bought my hat they
bought one of my properties for 15
million bucks but you know what we got
to stop them meanwhile he's got at
actors be very pleased fifty dollars
each to stand there supporting him at
don't really they were actors well again
I should probably compare that to the US
on the world stage as you have people
you know basically forced to pretend
that they agree the u.s. position and
you're my world and behind the scenes we
find out that they're actually saying oh
my god these guys are you most likely to
be a ross perot though as each first of
all it doesn't have anything like ross
perot's money and neither does he have
his appeal the main battle is going to
be between Republican and Democrat I'm
certain of that how certain are you
there is another Bush Clinton affair
well if you recall the last time I was
on your show I didn't think Bush would
actually run I don't I didn't think he
would put his name in to the hat to run
because I thought I was going to mention
that he would think i thought that
america wasn't ready for a dynasty for
more of a british sort of aristocratic
sort of system but they clearly are i
think this is a way maybe I don't think
however the base of the Republican Party
I think the power like powerful people
money people like bush and he's probably
more sensible than his brother and I
wouldn't be difficult yeah that would it
be difficult but the base remember jeb
Bush's Catholic george w bush's
evangelical and the evangelical voting
base of the Republican Party knew that
they understood that he was one of them
as why they merged lucious Catholic
we've got Tony Blair and now you're
telling me we've got Jeb Bush he
converted to Catholicism he was born
Episcopalian like george HW bush and he
became catholic now this also presents
an interesting thing because of course
the Pope issued the encyclical about
climate change which Americans are
especially Republicans like eighty
ninety percent of them believe it's
either hoaxes or it's caused by
a natural process so the Pope has come
out this is a good say yeah he's calling
it like a giant trash heap of we've
turned earth into and that we have to
stop climate change so the two
frontrunners on the Republican side are
Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio to Catholics so
there's always that suspicion in America
of Catholics and they're gonna take
orders from the Pope's um Hillary
Clinton I mean I find it difficult to
take it seriously the idea that that
this woman will be the Democrat nominee
but if she is she's likely to win I
would have thought because I mean are a
Republican maybe i'm wrong but a
republican bush three seems such a big
ask of the united states well like i
said i don't think bush i think it might
be Marco Rubio who comes out ahead he's
you know Latino he said the new
generation is coming up and I think also
he's he pulls better than Bush against
Clinton in the three basically to become
president you have to win two of the
three states ohio pennsylvania in
florida and he does best in the polls
against clinton in those states she
still she still wins Florida right now
it even though he was the senator from
Florida now he the other problem however
is that the Cuban story Obama has kind
of taken that away from him and he's a
he's resolved it you can't now suddenly
want to bring back something from the
past in order he was would I think have
done better if Obama had not pulled that
rug out but Hillary is plagued by
ethical issues plagued by the downside
of her husband's presidency he was quite
well thought of at the time but since
then things like the abolition of the
glass-steagall act the the three strikes
and you're out legal changes that he
made which has led to mass incarceration
of black people in America can Hillary
some
those things well okay now in the
American system you have the primaries
first and then the election so it's what
happens in the primaries you don't know
she has to run against Bernie Sanders
who is the only socialist in America
he's running for the Democratic ticket
she's gonna have to go further left in
the primaries to make sure like she gets
enough boats in the Republican side the
the Catholics Rubio and Jeb Bush are
gonna have to disown the Pope and
they're gonna have to be crazy for the
evangelicals that leave Scott Walker by
the way he's the third and right now in
the polling and he's from wisconsin
northern but he's event evangelical and
very he's proven his track ered regions
match the union's all the women unions
he left untouched the police and firemen
unions which are majority male the
fireman is ninety-seven percent male but
he smashed the teachers and the nurses
that the women the female based unions
and so um President Obama's tenure comes
to a rather pitiful pathetic sputtering
end doesn't it in the United States
there seems to be an intense hatred of
Obama amongst Tenzin way he's playing
out in Charleston South Carolina you
know there was an escalation and that
sort of crimes against hate crimes
against black people but on the other
side you also see
you
world one would think against all sorts
of drone Wars and surveillance and the
left wing we're very good at standing up
against george w bush and very vocal
they really were challenging him there
was some real conflict in the US and
challenge and you know people standing
up to Authority now it's just because
the right doesn't mind that and the
right wing has been for him with a trade
deal that the left wing has now
scuppered in terms of the TPP stasia how
about thank you that's a story that's
going to run and run coming up after the
break how does policing in London look
if you're black find out we'll be right
back
welcome back to Sputnik the BBC sex
partner the Met policing London has
attracted much critical acclaim it seeks
to show the difficulties and
complexities of policing this great
metropolis where the minorities are the
majority exceptin police force of course
to be fair though the med police have
several times acknowledge their
institutionalized problem with racism
there have been less good at solving the
problem though joining us now is a man
who I'm sure knows how to solve the
problem he's the great human rights
leader Stafford Scott coordinator of
tottenham rights supporter of the mark
duggan campaign now suppose Stafford in
tottenham the program didn't go down
entirely well I met anybody from
Tottenham or from the surrounding areas
who felt that I was a realistic
portrayal of their relationship with the
Metropolitan Police Service as far as
most people are concerned I've met it
was fluff I think I would agree with
what Simon Jenkins were in The Guardian
about it then it's just for Fitz just PR
is met PR but it's dangerous PR it is
those kind of programs that only show
the side of the police into the police
want us to see is the problem at the top
of the police or at the bottom well we
saw we saw the Commissioner on telly and
we heard him say they hadn't arrested
anybody in the last seven years so the
problem isn't with the commissioners is
not with the chief superintendents it's
with the foot soldiers is with the rank
and file is within the everyday Bobby
and what the program failed to show us
was about the canteen culture because
that's what we're being complaining
about ever since I was a child the
canteen culture where it becomes where
racism and racist behaviors become
normalized and where black people become
stereotypes and that's what we weren't
seen this program and what we want to
see a program about
men is how they address those issues how
they deal with those issues well you see
how I was hoping that your answer would
be the reverse because that would be
much easier to deal with as somebody
running for the office of mayor of
london and hoping to run the police if
the problem was at the top it would be
much easier absolutely just remove the
people at the top make you the Chief
Constable and hey presto the problem
would be over but it's bigger than that
because the problem is further down
amongst the rank and file and are there
any signs that is getting any better or
other signs it's getting worse I think
there was a period post McPherson and
another period post the verdict in the
mark duggan ingress where the police
appeared to be trying to control their
officers control their behaviors and
control their practices since McPherson
they have definitely gone back to their
bad old ways and since this program was
first filmed they've gone back to their
hard old ways in tottenham at the moment
we are waiting for and the launch of
Operation shield which is a pilot of the
Boston model which is the most
oppressive kind of policing that these
police officers could possibly wish to
bring to an area like Tottenham is not
just Tottenham they also bring it to
Brixton the other area that was ironic I
wonder what tournament bricks don't have
in common well I think what we have in
common is history and I think that the
Metropolitan Police Service what they
have is a very long memory and I think
that what they want to do is come back
into areas like Tottenham and Brixton
and try to equal old scores I think that
because of what happened in Tottenham on
the fourth of August 2011 tried in a
desperate to get back in there and now
the mere the local authority and the
police have come together to create an
opportunity for them to come back into
topmen but if you look all of the
statistics there's no reason whatsoever
why Duncan should be a focus of this
well the blood runs cold at the thought
of an American policing model being up
on the streets of London has this been
subject to any public consultation any
public debate I mean I saw one of the
most remarkable sights on this program
in Brixton where a comrade of mine Lee
jasper is ranting a panel of powerful
people who are representing the police
and every person on the panel is right
absolutely every person is why they're
all telling us that just hold on we're
we're aware of the issues we know what
the problems are we're going to adjust
them we're going to solve them and then
what we see is in another few years we
see another white panel generally
different people who are trying to tell
us the same exact message unlike the BBC
we don't fall for that message easily
because we experience policing they're
not changing they're not making a
difference and the reality is is the
only things that have changed since when
I was growing up in the 80s is the fact
that there's cameras in vans so that we
don't get beaten up in the vans in the
way that we used to before but we get
beaten on the streets we get roughed up
on the streets before they bring us into
those police stations and if you look at
the statistics around stop and search as
an example those statistics have
actually shot up and they haven't gone
down the Met hasn't learned anything and
for that I'm very very clear the irony
of this all with the title of policing
London the one spot that they're missing
and where a lot of criminal activities
are taking place is the city in the City
of London absolutely where the mech
doesn't have a responsibility here and
there might actually be a good thing but
it means that we're not seeing the whole
picture but is being told to people that
this is the whole picture I was invited
to meet the producers of that show
whilst they were filming I've assumed
wrongly that they were going to invite
me for an interview they invited me for
a coffee gave me some dvds of what
they're done previously and just told me
that they were doing this and what it
really says is they know the voices of
since but they don't want to hit put
those voices of dissent on film the Met
has a massive mpr budget it used to be
bigger than the entire budget for the
IPCC the organization with
responsibility for holding them to
account they're brilliant appear they
really do not need and taxpayers money
to be paid helping them do the job and
unfortunately that's exactly what the
BBC is doing at the moment the Reverend
Jesse Jackson was on the radio this
morning from the United States in the
wake of the South Carolina the
Charleston massacre in the African
church there and he made the point that
black white inequalities in wealth black
white inequalities in living conditions
housing circumstances employment and
other prospects were actually getting
worse in the United States getting wider
that's him here absolutely in the 1980s
I went on telly and actually spoke about
he's not the kind of language I was used
to thee but I was talking about
subculture that was growing in front of
our very eyes the problem here and the
problem with most of white societies
when we talk about racism people want to
believe that it's a victimless crime but
it's not of it in this crime and you're
a young and you go to school and you're
the victim of racism from teachers and
head teachers and you're excluded from
school that has an impact has an impact
on your ability to be able to stay with
them with the mainstream impact on your
ability to be able to go forth get jobs
and work if it happens to one person the
rest of the community can support them
but it happens all the community then
there's no support for them so we have
some young people's but particularly in
our community who are particularly
marginalizing I say from the mainstream
who had totally cut off and almost left
to their own devices until the one
service that they do get from the
mainstream turns up and that's our mates
in the Metropolitan Police Service and
when
by the program and of course influences
the entire subculture at 28 times you
are more likely to be stopped and
searched if you're black or Asian than
if you are white that's a phenomenal
difference that cannot possibly be
explained by conviction rates or even
charging rates although I hardly Jasper
on this program on the met on BBC say
that you're twice as likely to be
actually taken to court for possession
of cannabis if you're black then if
you're white I'd like to know how anyone
explains that oh it's simple when police
officers have given the power of using
their discretion and they are as black
people they choose not to use that
discretion when they're urs black people
they criminalize us in ways that they
wouldn't do to your average white
middle-class person per se so there's a
discretion issue that isn't being used
there's powers they're being abused and
those who sit there as commissioner and
borrow command is they're aware of it
and they're incapable and unable of
stopping their officers and I'll give
you an example any time since the victor
elisa came to tottenham we had a
fractious relationship at the beginning
eventually we're up actually like the
man now but every time I organize a
meeting for the mark duggan just this
campaign his officers turn up at the
venues and the reason why they turn up
is because they're trying to harass
those venues and ski those venues into
hosting us he has promised me that he
would stop them he has been totally
incapable of doing it his managers
underneath him his senior officers send
over lesser officers to come to the
venues they came there last week what
i'm gonna do since he's unable to stop
it i'm going to tell him that the next
time that happens i will be carrying us
isn't a rest on those officers because i
believe that their behavior is likely to
cause a breach of the peace
it's unnecessary honest is harassment
but he is incapable of being able to
stop them so the politicians those are
the top echelons of the police service
can say what they want to say until they
can absolutely have control over their
offices and get their officers to show
restraint then it's just words and they
just mean in this worse I have lived
through at least 15 different police
commissioner's I've heard it all from
all of them and some of them are heard
is safe saying it better and more
believable than the current commissioner
and none of them are actually able to
deliver stovl Scott will have to talk to
you I'm sure again and now it's your
turn to tell us what you think through
the portals of social media what's
rattling gayatri well we asked is Bush
versus Clinton again really the best the
u.s. can do to which Ricardo because so
answers regardless of the name its
corporation donkey versus corporation
elephant is it really America's idea of
democracy two cheeks of the same batter
exactly and about the Metropolitan
Police the BBC series del strain
comedian says same old same old bill PR
is better and red camera have to be
careful now that's all I we've got for
this week which alas means that's the
end of the show you can stay in touch
with us on twitter RT underscore Sputnik
and on facebook you can like us on
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gayathri and from me george
galloway it's been marvelous
you